Awhile ago I wrote Why Selling Into a Crowd Can Feel So Gross, where I delved into the unconscious group dynamics that happen when you are a presenter selling your product to an audience.
And since then, a kind of unwritten, almost unconscious policy I’ve had for years has become both more conscious and more written.
At the same time, there has been some healthy debate inside Heart of Business about our business model. How do we make our profit? Do we go for large numbers and lower prices? Do we go for smaller numbers but premium prices? Who is our audience? What do they need? What can they afford?
Bingo! Hot-button question there at the end.
Is “What Can They Afford?” A Legitimate Question?
There is an opinion that says people can always afford what they are committed to. There’s a related opinion that says you should charge as much as you can.
I say, as politely as I can, “bullhonkey.” (If you’re curious about my views on manifestation, go get Backwards. You’ll find it under Free Trainings.
However, there’s also a truism (meaning, “true enough to be said”) that heart-centered entrepreneurs sometimes have trouble charging enough to be paid a comfortable amount.
It’s a tricky question. I know I want to see people who need help get the help they need. I also know I want my family to be taken care of. And, to be honest, I’ve poured my heart and soul into this business, I’m okay with making a good living from it.
However, not everyone can, or should, be able to afford your services. Sometimes the price you want or need to charge is going to be outside the reach of some of your audience. But where’s the line?
The Problem With Inspirational Businesses
When your business combines transformational, spiritual, or aspirational work of some sort, there’s an inherent risk. If you have a mission, something you care deeply about, and your business is a vehicle for that mission, you have a slight problem.
The problem is this: while any purchase you make is at least partially an emotional choice, your business means that there can be a real tangle. It becomes all too easy for someone to conflate their aspirations, hopes and vision with purchasing what you are offering.
Is it manipulation? Is it just good business?
Let’s make it real. You have someone interested in one of your programs. They are totally excited about it, it seems perfect for them, it tackles something they really need to handle in their life.
And this person doesn’t have the money. Their income is very low, and somewhat unstable. They’ll be adding significant debt to work with you.
Is it okay to sign this person up and take their money? Is it totally their responsibility or do you bear a part of the karmic implications?
I’m really, really curious about your perspective, your questions, your experiences. Let’s tackle this as a community.
165 Responses
I’ve struggled with this a lot, Mark — My own businesses FAILED financially a number of times in the last 20 years because of it. Several times I ended up with nothing but an apartment’s worth of “personal possessions” because my heart went out to the people I longed to help — and I ended up telling them they didn’t need to pay me, or I worked for 20% of the “going rate” because they were (all) startups and deserving and scraping by, or they told me at the end of a project that they really appreciated all my great work, but they couldn’t afford to pay me. —– I’ve decided that the answer for me is to work for those who can afford to pay me a good rate for good work — and for those who “can’t afford” it, I will decide how much pro-bono work I can do in right relationship with all the aspects of my life, and then stick to my healthy boundaries. And charitable work will take back seat to paid work, instead of the other way around (what was I thinking?!)
Mark, this is EXACTLY why I created my Money Map process and subsequent program. I needed it for myself because I was torn to pieces about my business model.
The crack came about in late 2009 when I was in the midst of an awakening of sorts that the business I had built to provide me with freedom had trapped me. I had just met with my accountants and discovered my companies were on track to bring in $2,000,000 for the year. I “should” have been ecstatic, but I wasn’t. I was scared to death. I wanted to be who I really was and yet I had a team of people whispering into my ear “Alexis, you can’t do that, you can’t write that, you can’t wear that, you can’t say that, you can’t be that. The lawyers won’t like it. It will hurt the business.” On top of that, my overhead was ballooning to the point where I felt as if I was drowning.
I remember reading a quote from David Neagle around that time that said “if your business isn’t growing, it’s dying” and I wanted to die myself. I didn’t want my business to grow anymore. I just wanted it to be able to stay the way it was because the growth felt unsustainable.
There was a big part of me that knew my business model was far too dependent on my personality, which at the time was very unstable. How could I be who I really was, continue to serve the lawyers I was training in a way that felt good, AND have a business model that supported the life I really wanted to have? I didn’t have the answers because I had built my business model on a conditioned view of success. Fame + fortune were the name of the game instead of the freedom to be who and how I really wanted to be.
So, I asked my CFO to help me construct a process by which I could get conscious about what success really did mean to me; how much money did I really need to meet my family’s needs and the needs of my vision. The Money Map was born and as a result of it I have deconstructed and reconstructed everything about my life — today, I am sovereign. My business model is built on conscious awareness of what Lynne Twist calls in her book “Soul of Money” ‘Sufficiency’ as opposed to a driving need for fame and fortune.
I have no problem whatsoever with lawyers (or other entrepreneurs) going into debt for my trainings because I see debt as an available resource just the same as cash and because I know that my programs will provide them with a massive return on their investment so they can pay back their debt and build a business they can count on for life.
I should not as well, it is VERY rare these days that I will ever just offer pure advice/coaching w/o an implementation component because my experience is that most people cannot/do not implement with mere advice and without implementation support and I felt very uncomfortable taking money from people who wanted my advice that I knew they would not implement correctly.
As a result, I’ve been able to make all of my programs more affordable by at least half. I now never take on a client or customer who I do not think will receive at least a ten times ROI on their investment. And I never take on a client just because I think I need the money.
To that end, I am in the process of building a software platform that will provide my internet marketing/business building coaching guidance for a small fraction of what people have paid me in the past to do it privately through an implementation platform so they cannot do it “wrong” and waste their money.
My objective is to make internet marketing/business building accessible to everyone without them having to invest the hundreds of thousands of dollars I have invested in coaching and a whole lot of mistakes made along the way.
After seeking Karri’s post on the topic of going into debt for premium priced coaching programs, I am going to write a blog post on the topic myself next. I’ll let you know when it’s complete.
This question has been turning over in my mind too, and I feel I’m on both sides of it as a struggling entrepreneur. I think the answer goes back to being heart-centered and in gratitude during the selling process – for both the business owner and prospective client. It doesn’t respect the prospect to treat them differently based on their ability to pay. The heart-based entrepreneur probably isn’t pushing someone beyond what is in alignment with their highest purpose.
This question has been playing in the back of my mind since I read the post a couple hours ago.
My gut feeling is: No, we can’t financially harm a client. Which is not to say that a client can’t be financially harmed (confusion anyone? grin) – I mean: if we have a business that is heart centered, are offering what we offer without purposefully intending to manipulate or cheat our clients, then we are not able to financially harm them (although they may come to financial harm it would not be within the scope of our responsibility/karma — unless, of course, we had an actual discussion with them where they let us know they were mortgaging the farm and planned to hock their family treasures in order to afford our services).
I think financial harm is much more likely in our own lives and businesses (when we have that heart-centered thing going). Like Megan (above, in the comments) I have experience with giving much more than was healthy for me and my life, because (as Megan says) “my heart went out to the people”.
Thanks for this question, Mark – there’s healing in having issues like this out in the open! I look forward to hearing what others have to say.
Hey Karen,
We do actually have those conversations with our clients prior to them making any significant investment with us. What I’ve found is that on the odd occasion where a client ‘slipped through that net’ and over-invested in one on one coaching with me, they ended up too stressed to focus on moving forward in a productive way.
I hear you on the importance of avoiding financial self-harm too!
Love Yollana
One difficulty in all of this is the “afford” is sometimes about priorities. Yes, there is a level where people have very limited funds and have to make choices between rent and food or can barely cover rent and food. But for many of the people we serve, “afford” is really about what priority they give to the service we offer. For example, I am shocked at how much people spend on cable TV, cell-phone packages, etc. If I felt that I needed them, I would probably “afford” them, but I give my priority to other things (chicken feed and tractors, for example).
The difficulty for the heart-centred entrepreneur is that sometimes we make assumptions about what others can afford. And those assumptions can be tangled up with undervaluing what we offer. If we assume that someone of x income level can’t afford our service/product then we are assuming that this is not a priority for them over other things they spend money on.
We would all agree that customers shouldn’t be going hungry or getting behind on the rent to pay for what we offer, but many people who would struggle to find the money for what we offer are not struggling at that level. Their struggle is with deciding that what we offer is a higher priority than something they are spending money on now. Do they cancel the cable package to afford our services? Do they decide not to buy those nice boots?
Or, they are deciding that the debt to pay for what we offer is good debt — an investment in their ability to afford more later. Especially for services like Mark’s that enable people to earn more money, going into debt might indeed be a good decision. The service might be worth (cost + interest).
Jove, you make a beautiful distinction around the concept of “affordability.” I agree that there’s a big difference between investing in a service or product at the expenses of covering the necessities (such as food, rent or anything else in the first few levels of Maslow’s hierarchy), and the tough decision to invest in something that requires we spend less or forego other “priorities” and areas where we are currently or have previously spent money.
I think that it all depends how comfortable are you to sell things to people. Growing up from an average income family, I was conditioned as a child to think that sellers are bad, because they are trying to take our money from us.. That is why when I try to sell things to others initially, I will tend to put myself in the buyers’ position, hesitating that it might not be what they want, that it’s wrong to make a big profit out of the poor man’s pocket, that they cannot benefit fully etc.. It takes a lot to change that perspective.
Yes, I believe that integrity starts with the seller and that, as the person making the invitation for a client to purchase our service or product, we have to be in integrity with what we are offering and feel peace / confidence in the value we are offering.
Otherwise, if we feel out of integrity or feel bad about what we are offering, that energy dynamic definitely impacts the buyer and either discourages them from buying or can cause them to doubt their intuitive “yes” to working with you.
When I look back at my personal financial history there are so many times when I bought things (usually books!) I couldn’t really afford – and yet hesitated to pay for things which would have really helped me. Yikes. So yes, it is also very much a matter of deciding where your resources go as a client.
And even if your bank balance is pretty grim there’s usually some leeway. When I really wanted to attend a seminar I couldn’t afford I decided to sell a lens which I wasn’t using much anyway. Problem solved. Seminar paid back for itself in 3 months – the lens hadn’t.
But if someone really is in serious financial trouble then I would have a problem signing them up – unless they have a solid plan in place to sort things out, or if my services would help them financially. I doubt whether they’d have the time/energy to focus on anything else until their problems were solved anyhow…
If the program I’m offering is truly “perfect for them” and “tackles something they really need to handle”, then the two important questions to ask are “How urgent is it to solve the problem?” and “How competent is this person to make decisions for her/himself?”
So, if a person is struggling financially, and the most urgent issues in their life are around that financial struggle, and what I offer will directly help them with their financial struggle, then it’s pretty much a no-brainer to sign them up. But if their most urgent issues are around, say, their relationship with a life partner, or a health problem, and my program addresses financial issues, then it’s equally a no-brainer to say, “I’d be delighted to sign you up later.”
And just to make it parallel, if a person’s most urgent issues are around a health problem, and my program will really help them with that, it’s a no-brainer to sign them up.
It gets trickier when, say, if a person does better financially, it will also relieve important stresses in their most urgent problem.
There’s also a concern when even if my program works perfectly, and the client gets exactly what they need for their most urgent issue, they’re still going to be struggling financially for a long time. That goes to the person’s competency in make decisions for themselves. If I don’t trust a person’s competency in taking care of themself, I’m going to be very, very cautious about signing them up.
Also, Mark’s question isn’t about “Do I give a discount?” It’s about when is it ok or not ok to sign someone up when they’re struggling financially. Giving a discount is a really important topic, but I think it’s different from this topic.
Good discussion here….
Bottom line -MY LITMUS TEST– and it has worked really well over the past 8 years of my business–
‘What feels right for ME, right now?’
Sounds simple, but is a little detailed (and does involve considering where the purchaser is, but puts my Guidance and sense first and has worked for me EVERY time).
That’s not to say I don’t look at what they expect to pay and what the market will bear, but I FIRST think about/feel about: ‘What feels right for ME, right now?’
EXAMPLE: In the beginning of my training business it felt right for me to accept a gig that was a bit lower in my expected rate, but involved a topic I wanted to master, a group I wanted to know and helped me help them in a way that felt right for me.
The KEY was – I felt good about it, AND they felt good about it.
But, to take that type of pay for a gig today would NOT be a match for me, so the litmus test ‘What feels right for ME, right now?’ helps me understand that.
The thing is – we evolve – and situations change and evolve – so for me, being fluid has really worked. Letting the grey area be a good thing and just not sweating it so much.
And I get it that the minute I start totally focusing on what they will pay and accept, that’s the minute I’ve gone away from my own Guidance. And, my Guidance knows and will Guide me.
And sometimes, over the years – I’ve done things too low, and felt bad (or at least not great) later on. Well, THAT was helpful, now I have more input to help Guide future decisions.
I also do not tune into very much what other people are charging… Yea, I do know what other people charge for similar things – I’m not ill-informed – BUT their life and their clients and their situation is NOT mine, so I simply do not let that type of chatter Guide me or make my decisions.
Tuning in, doing what feels right and then making adjustments. Allowing myself to experiment and learn, and be less “caught-up-in-my-shorts” (stressed) around whether it is “the right fee” is the key for me.
Personally, I don’t think that anyone should ever go into debt to purchase spiritual/ personal development services, programs or products. I’ve purchased some really great products and services over the years but I don’t think that any of them would have been worth going into debt to get because there are so many free ways to develop yourself spiritually and personally.
Of course this presents a problem for businesses… if you want to serve the people who are in financial trouble and can’t afford to pay for your service or product then you have to get creative about your business model!
I you for this Mark (for lots of other reasons, too.) I think you have to to factor in what people can afford. It doesn’t have to be the only factor but you can’t ignore it. Encouraging people to put themselves and their families in precarious financial situations because it somehow ups the ante is irresponsible and can do deep deep harm. And when that harm comes to fruition, the person who encouraged the decision usually isn’t around to help pick up the pieces..
Please please continue this discussion. It is so necessary in our industry.
Love you!
Sarah
“However, there
Thanks, Tara, for articulating that.
I’ve always been inclined to spend money
I really like your question! Doing no financial harm is also part of proper marketing, expectations, and positioning – not just the price.
Is it financial harm to put a $10,000 program on a credit card if it means that, with some hard work, you’re likely to make over $100k? I’d take that bet. Not everyone would – but many.
Offers need to be clearly communicated and results need to be clearly stated so that you have the information you need to make the big bet.
To me, this isn’t just a pricing issue – it’s a whole-hearted business issue! 🙂
Yeah, Tara! Loved your distinction of aspiring and accomplished heart-centered entrepreneurs.
And Hamish, this piece on integrity feels key to me also. Right on!
Tara – yep, love the way you framed that. Totally what I’d expect from the Art of Earning lady! 😉
This is precisely why I developed a “stray cat fund” for my work. I know that I’m going to come in contact with people that I want to help, but can’t afford my services. Sometimes, there’s just nothing to barter, and it seems silly to pretend otherwise. On the other hand, I could easily fill my day/life with pro-bono work that nets me penniless in the process.
My “Stray Cat fund” is an allocation of hours each month that I essentially “tithe” to folks/projects/potential clients that may or may never be able to repay me. When I hit my limit for the month, I have to make a VERY conscious decision to cross that line in my business – or simply bump them into the next month.
It’s been a good happy medium for me that allows me to serve and be served – we have to have both to have balance.
I’ve had experience from both sides of that equation.
First, I’ve watched people go into debt just to buy the high-end furniture I was making several years ago. I was a little bothered by that, but shrugged it off as “just business.”
Then, as an impoverished and sometimes homeless business owner, I watched myself go into debt to afford training, courses, and resources I thought would move me forward. Again, I thought it was “just business.”
My experiences from both sides of that have brought a new perspective for me and my work.
As a business owner and creator of resources I have a responsibility to produce work from my core values and convictions. The best work possible. Then, I have a responsibility to make the people aware of that work, crafting clear messages of who it’s intended for or will serve the best. The price must align with and support the perceived value experiences of the customer.
As an individual focused on a life’s mission, I must demonstrate to myself and the people around me the financial responsibility that supports my life’s message. If they don’t align and support each other, then something’s way off. Disconnecting from debt and taking financial responsibility.
I hold the the customers to this as well. If they live under different sets of personal convictions about finances, that’s between them and the people around them.
Often, if they’re willing to encounter debt for a purchase, they will find that my product won’t do them much good because they’re probably chasing the magic bullet of illumination and haven’t come to the understanding that application is the secret.
So, that’s why it falls on me to always refine my messages to communicate as clearly as possible to the people who can support my work financially and suport themselves through purchasing my work, without sacrificing their immediate needs.
Just my 2
[Reposting this comment w/o the CommentLuv checked – please delete if this is a repeat!]
It’s absolutely possible to do financial harm … and worse (spiritual/emotional harm). But it’s a matter of scale, scaling up and scaling down.
The most obvious example: selling a five-figure program to a client who isn’t even earning those kinds of numbers annually. In any other industry a smart business owner would look at financing that much money against an intangible asset (advice/coaching/healing/whatever) as a terribly poor business decision. In coaching? We think it’s perfectly normal to say remortgage our home in order to enroll. (Coaches call it an “investment in your business.” Um, no, that’s throwing money in the fire and hoping you’ll jump off enough cliffs to make it back.)
Ball room selling permits this to keep happening and I know you’ve already talked about this, Mark (loved that post btw). This isn’t to say that selling to an audience is wrong. It isn’t. But people are losing a LOT of money, not to mention the emotional stress – even trauma – when the return on “investment” doesn’t materialize. This is with no recourse. Not to mention how paying that kind of money makes it incredibly difficult to speak up when the program isn’t progressing as expected. (You just parted with disproportionately large sum of money that you can’t get back no matter what, so better to keep cliff diving and hope for the best. Plus you don’t want to taint your relationship with the program leader which could further jeopardize your “investment.”)
It’s all about proportion and scale and a client’s relative trajectory, not simply “ability to pay” (Exhibit A: the current global financial crisis). Unless your clients are millionaires, there’s no scenario I can think of where charging multiple five figures for a program makes any sense. Does it work out for some? Sure. That doesn’t justify the model being employed.
It’s one thing to finance a business. It’s quite another to drain your profits (and then some) for “advice.” I say that as someone who charges a nice coaching rate too! But none of my clients are likely to lose their business – or their dignity – over it.
It goes back to the old analogy of the oxygen mask in the airplane. Put it on yourself first, then take care of the person next to you – even if (especially if!) that person is somehow unable to take care of him or her self.
If we starve our own cash flow, how can we possibly support others in creating the lives they want – however it may be that we do that?
I offer things across a wide range of price points, from free on up to high-end individual services. (Stay tuned on that … there’s going to be a couple of great low- to mid-point programs coming early in the year!)
The thing is, and I KNOW we all know this from personal experience – sometimes it takes paying for something to create the appropriate and desired focus on what we’re trying to accomplish. How much free stuff do we all have on our hard drives that we’ve never read, much less implemented? I had someone tell me just today that she loves the free e-course I offer, but she also knows that she’d be far more likely to do something with it if she were paying for it.
Like anything in life, there are no hard and fast rules; there’s just a lot of fuzzy gray area. If someone is clearly motivated and I feel they’re likely to take advantage of what I give AND (and this is important) are also likely to find a way to give back – I’m far more likely to be extra-generous than if someone either isn’t going to do anything with what I give them, or is just taking and taking and taking and never offers any feedback or responds to questions when I ask them.
In the best situations – the ones that actually work – there’s always a give-and-take in effect, even when it seems as if one person is doing all the giving. And when there isn’t a give-and-take in effect – if one person actually is doing all the giving and the other is doing all the taking – then resentment sets in on the part of the giver, and that’s a clear sign – albeit a bit too late! – that things are out of whack.
The more I do this work, the more clear all that has become for me – and thanks, Mark, for asking the question and helping me get even more clear!
Grace – loved what you said re “starving your own cashflow.” So true!!
I wonder though if it *REALLY* “takes paying for something to create the appropriate and desired focus on what we
Oh, yeah.
I think paying for something can help IF the commitment is already there. But no amount of money forked over can create commitment. The commitment has to come from inside, and it has to be strong enough that someone can overcome the resistance (fear, whatever) that may come up … and/or be willing to ask for help overcoming the resistance.
Great points, Grace!
I absolutely agree that at a certain point, we have to allow the client to do their part and to “pick up their end of the couch” in terms of responsibility.
At the same time, it interesting to look at how that level of responsibility is different based on the product or service that a client purchases. If a client, say, purchases your home study product at $199, there is only so much you can do to help the client “consume” the product or to gain value and results from the product itself. When it comes to private coaching or higher-end programs, it does feel like our level of responsibility as guides is raises and that there’s an additional level of qualification that needs to happen before allowing a client to invest at that higher level to insure fit, etc.
As an example, I will often have authors who want to purchase a virtual book tour series, not realizing that the virtual book tour is only a piece of their overall marketing plan. Without that overall plan, I personally feel that I would be doing them a disservice to let them invest in the virtual book tour solution at the expense of investing in an overall plan, even if that means losing that client or offering something at a lower rate (ex. single strategy call) that will fit their overall budget.
Going back through this amazing discussion and realizing there are comments I’ve missed responding to.
Elizabeth – yes, I totally agree. AND … I still say there’s a huge amount of gray area. I have one client who’s financially strapped, and in my calls with her I sometimes question just what she’s getting in the way of value. I’ve specifically asked her that question, to confirm for both of us … is this right? And the answers she gives me tell me that yes, this really is a valuable process for her, even though it’s proceeding more slowly than I might prefer – especially given my understanding of her finances.
She’s someone who doesn’t give to herself well or often. My sessions with her are a real gift that she’s giving to herself – and I’m so not saying that to be self-congratulatory! I’m recognizing and acknowledging that for her.
Am I being irresponsible and doing financial harm? No, I don’t think so. I think she’s responsible enough to understand what she’s gaining from our work together, and to understand whether it’s something she needs, despite where her finances are. I trust her to make that decision.
It’s a big and very fuzzy gray area, and I think the only answer is for each of us to stand in our own integrity and respond from that place on an individual case-by-case basis. Comfortable? Nope. It would be far easier and less demanding to have a hard-and-fast rule. But I don’t think there is one.
Really great blog. I love how articulate you are – I can really feel your heart in this one – actually – in all of ’em 🙂
I believe that each one of us has a guiding light that gives us a nudge about what we ought to invest in for ourselves. I think this question speaks to having each of us get really clear with our own selves about the choices we make financially in all areas of our lives. I think that is the lesson – and it’s for the client, not us.
I have purchased a high ticket item that was “out of my reach” before and I went back and forth on it …. in my heart I knew it wasn’t a fit but I went for it anyway. I didn’t receive the value I’d anticipated or that I was “promised” however I learned a ton from that experience and I guess I got a different kind of “value”. Because of that experience I am more chose y with who I work with, I am more diligent about checking in with my inner guidance system and I do way more research now than I once did. I can now really identify with those “well if I buy this one – it feels good and if I buy 3 of these it feels bad feelings.”
So, I’ve learned how to be in integrity with my own “knowing” if something is a fit or not.
I don’t think it is we, as heart centered business owners who put our clients in a financial pickle. It belongs to them. We can only do our part by living in our own center.
Lastly, what I’ve been doing with clients who “can’t afford to work with me” or who seem to be in a bit of a niggly money situation is invite them to read my freebies, get them to create a support system and work on the basics until they’re ready. I give them resources and I let them know I’m not going anywhere and that I’ll be here when they’re ready and more financially fit.
Also, it seems to me that you are truly a leader in giving what people need. You offer EXTREME beautiful value in your “freebies” and you have lower option ways to work with you and your staff as well. The choice becomes ours.
Just a great post …. thanks.
Jackie
My answer to the question is – it depends. On the one hand, IF we are in alignment with our authentic selves, operating in integrity, and are holding an intention to serve and deliver results, then NO, we cannot do financial harm to a client. That doesn’t mean, however, that a client can’t or won’t do financial harm to him/herself. People invest and then don’t follow-through on action, or self-sabotage – happens every day. In this scenario, though, if we are IN integrity when selling and a client is OUT of integrity (perhaps should not be investing with us at the time but says nothing) or FALLS OUT of integrity (has no intention of doing what they invested in) along the way, then each must own his/her position. There are no victims, only owners.
On the other hand, IF we are not in alignment and are out of integrity when selling, NOT intent on delivering results but simply going for the money, then YES we can absolutely do financial harm to a client and share karmic responsibility if a client who is also out of integrity decides to work with us. In this case, there is a willing victim and a business owner willing to take advantage of that victim. Here there are zero owners.
If we operate as heart-centered business owners however, who we attract and take as clients *should be a self-regulating process*. If we operate in integrity and desire to serve and deliver results, both for ourselves and our clients, then like should attract like. If that holds true, we should primarily if not exclusively attract those who are in financial integrity with themselves, can afford our services, and are ready and willing to reap a return on their investment by using/applying what they bought. Even if we do somehow manage to attract someone who is out of integrity, why then would a heart-centered business owner with integrity WANT them as a client knowing they’ll likely not be able to pay or not be willing and prepared to do the work?
Our emotional guidance systems exist for a reason – to steer us in the best direction for all concerned. If it feels wrong to sign a client it probably is. I have interviewed potential clients who I knew were not a fit financially for one of my services and you know what? They usually weren’t a fit on any other level, especially when it came to emotional and intellectual readiness – either. I wished them well and moved on. I’d rather not have the income than have clients paying me out of integrity with my values and their own.
I think Karri’s point above is that much selling is done outside a heart-centered space and incongruent with a place of integrity. When that happens, we all lose. If we don’t allow it to happen, we can do no financial harm.
This is a great piece, Mark, and some of our conversations have me thinking a lot more about financial harm.
I’m going to side with, “Yes, we can do financial harm to our clients.” I’ve worked with clients who were harmed by other advisors. At a certain point, our work transcends “the answers our clients already know” – the more the gap in our experience and influence, the more we need to ask responsible questions for our clients’ welfare.
In my work with my clients, we go into (sometimes painful) detail about what they’re earning and spending. I’ve learned through time that these conversations are some of the most powerful because we get to the root of things. It also helps me assess if our work together is something that meets their economic reality or if we need to alter our work so that we can pace what they’re paying (me) with what they’re earning in their business.
Would I be financially better off if I didn’t ask such questions? You betcha. Is it resonant with who I am and the business I’m building? Not so much.
Obviously, I have a lot more to say about this, but financial harm is a real issue, and it runs both ways: we can financially harm ourselves with too much compassion. Thanks for raising this issue on the web, Mark, as now I can reference it in a later post. 🙂
I love your reply Charlie, you more eloquently expressed what I was trying to get at, thank you. Financial harm is a real issue, and we CAN do it, let’s hope that through this conversation we raise awareness to the point where no one would want to.
(This is a rather amazing discussion!)
I suspect that many coaches/consultants don’t intend to do financial harm. But let’s be brutally honest: when intangible things like advice/coaching/healing are being sold for thousands of dollars per MONTH in 6 and 12-month packages, it’s just too enticing for a high profile coach to resist. So they hit the stage with the best of intentions … and people sign up … with the best of intentions.
Unfortunately, after the money has changed hands (usually with clients who CANNOT / should not afford the program), there is so much on the line that people DO act out of integrity. On both sides.
There’s a saying: Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
In this case, fees that are grossly out of line with the *realities* of running and financing and growing a small business “corrupt” the heart of good coaching and consulting.
When is enough money enough money? And to what lengths are we willing to go to get it?
Correction: “…there is so much on the line that people DO *NOT* act out of integrity. On both sides.”
I couldn’t agree more Karri. This to me is the elephant in the coaching / on line business world. I’m heart sick by the people Ive met who have used their retirement to buy into these coaching programs that are sold with the full on grand squeeze slam. We need, as a community, to STOP tweeting, speaking at, or in any way supporting those programs.
Just recently I learned of someone I know attending a “Law of Attraction” style workshop, after which, everyone was exhorted to sign up for regular sessions with a coach. I cringed when I heard this, because I strongly suspect that what really took place was that people attending the workshop were just coming off of a “workshop high” after being in a particular environment for several days, and were susceptible to being sold to. It’s one thing when all that’s for sale are some tchotchkes (sp??) in the lobby. It’s another when they’re signing a contract for ongoing coaching that costs several thousand dollars, and no one is saying to anyone, “Take some time to go home, let what you’ve learned at this workshop integrate, and then decide.” I believe that the latter would be far more ethical.
This is a great question and conversation, and one that I feel we all need to think about as service providers and also as students.
As someone who has invested a huge chunk of change (think down-payment style) in high end programs, I have to say that they aren’t for everyone. There’s a reason that most of the forms for those programs strictly state that you shouldn’t sign up if it is going to put you and your family in a financial situation that is dangerous.
Then again, plenty of people have built up their businesses using debt. I think it comes down to what each individual is willing to take on as risk. I’ve never taken on debt to grow my business and invest in programs or coaching. Then again, I’m lucky I’m Canadian and I didn’t have any debts from college.
Speaking of college educations, students are notorious for taking on crazy debt to get a degree… when there is even less of a guarantee on the results they are likely to get after they graduate (especially these days). It’s the same for high end programs in my opinion: the student really determines if it’s a good investment, if they’re going to work their butts off to make it pay off, and what results they get out of it.
I forgot to add that there are people like Ramit Sethi that don’t allow people to buy their products if they are in debt. And will refund and ban the person from buying his stuff ever again if he finds out they are in debt.
Just another approach!
Hmm…excellent questions and comments, too.
Like Megan and Karen, my business and finances suffered because I was so worried about charging folks more than they could afford that I wasn’t even charging the industry average for my work. At that time, my clients were the Federal Reserve Bank’s IT branch and a well-funded medical research project at Johns Hopkins…folks with notable resources and biggish budgets, yet I was worried about taking more than my share. Seriously.
And while knowing what to charge can still be challenging, I’m rarely challenged with concerns about what folks are willing and able to pay. Here’s why—
I had a client who earned $250,000 annually and didn’t want to spend a one-time $100 on a resource to improve their business operations. I also had a client who earned $50,000 a year who spent (on average) $2,400 each month on ebooks, programs, and memberships for reference. Yup, just to have around…they rarely read or referred to them.
After putting those two stories side-by-side? It was clear that folks are gonna spend what they’re gonna spend regardless of how much money they have.
However.
Your heartfelt question is why I feel it’s important to offer a product suite from free to full-price (which you do, Mark!). I advise clients to let the delivery method determine the price and distill or dial-down the quantity of content for lower-priced products while maintaining high quality regardless of price (of course).
The product funnel gets a bad rap, but it serves a higher purpose than directing folks to buy more, and more expensive, stuff. It also lets people come to you with whatever they have and start wherever they can.
And it gives you/us places to direct people who don’t have enough cash on hand rather than turn them away. Because it hurts to do that, yeh?
So while I do feel like it’s the customer’s/client’s responsibility to choose wisely and spend well, I consider it my/our job to make the choosing and spending easier for them and advise taking that position when folks ask me about creating their own products.
Right on, Crystal,
Not sure if you saw it yet, but Mark has just shared a 20 minute video on his revenue model (aka product funnel) in the Moneyflow 2012 No Cost Series.
Definitely worth looking at in relation to this conversation 🙂
I am BLOWN away by the quality, depth, thoughtfulness and care in the comments here. And so many of them from such heart-centered folks. Thank you all for contributing so beautifully.
More? Anyone have stories, like Adam shared, of times you were harmed, or times you avoided harm? I’m interested to hear some personal experiences as well.
This is such a relevant and timely topic, I think you’ve hit on something huge, Mark. The world economy is shifting so dramatically, while the online world has its own bubble of concerns and best practices. It’s fascinating.
To answer your specific question:
1. To avoid harm, for either end, we have a strict set of qualifying criteria that my team is trained to use when interviewing applicants for any program. The team is rewarded financially for successfully unselling customers who would not be ready for a given program. (Kind of like an anti-commission.) To me, nothing is more important than the long term relationship with a given audience member – I don’t need their fast cash, and I won’t take it if I know they’re not in a position to give it.
We’ve never had a refund request, but I’ve kicked 3 people out of our pipeline permanently, because I could feel that they weren’t facing their financial realities and proactively addressing them. It was lovingly done, but numbers are numbers. If you can’t meet your basic goals and you’re not using the training to change that, you shouldn’t be investing.
May be harsh, but it’s just my opinion, and it’s worked so far. Curious what you think about that.
Warmly,
Sinclair
Sinclair–
I love your anticommission! In my former line of work as a community mental health therapist, we had a sliding scale of fees, based on income. Now–most people had Medicaid to pay for the services. If the families made too much money to be on Medicaid, then we asked to see a copy of their tax return to be assured of charging them the appropriate fee. Much easier to see hard numbers than rely on intuitive sense. 🙂
The agency had a difficult time implementing fee collection since we therapists went to homes & schools for appointments…but that’s a different story.
****
Coming into this artificially inflated world of Internet Marketing…I have a very hard time justifying my own prices or those of anyone else considering this:
The State of Oklahoma reimbursed my agency at $92 an hour for me to SAVE LIVES. Take a suicidal person to the hospital, unravel their misguided thought processes & help them heal to the point of being legally allowed to remain in their homes. You know what I was paid for that? $33 per hour. That is still good money based on the jobs I’m looking at nationwide.
The sliding scale fee was $60/hour for $100k+ income. To reunite families. To reconcile quarreling spouses. To advocate for the lead poisoned child who was also sexually abused by her neighbor. To work with teachers struggling to educate these children in the depths of poverty so they might have enough self worth & in turn, longer lives later on.
So, you see…I am one who does not partake in the $200+/hour coaching for my business, or $1800+ for a website. It’s not as real to me as holding a devastated mother mourning the loss of her child by drug overdose. Do I deserve $200+ an hour for that? Some would say yes. However, the people who need me the most could never in their WILDEST dreams afford the prices all of us here debate so easily.
I’m still rebuilding myself, my business (thank you again for the interview, lovely) & figuring out how I can best serve the truly needy while feeding myself. It helps to be minimalist. I’m shrinking my bleeding heart social worker self into a more manageable heart centered business owner.
I sincerely hope the new economy takes seriously the necessity of caring for our human family without enabling disempowering excuses.
Thank you, Mark. Businesses which are sustainable on every level are difficult to find. They must be built on a solid foundation of consideration & compassion, which requires a lot of painful soul searching first. 🙂
I love this, Jeannie. And I can so relate. I topped out at the top of the union pay scale as a paramedic at about $22/hour. To save lives. 🙂
One thing to consider is that as a business owner your billable hours are a small fraction of the time, and so the price you charge needs to run the whole business, as opposed to when you are employed, and you have a larger number of billable hours going from client to client. Still, your point is very, very powerful and needs to be considered strongly.
Coming up with creative revenue models is incredibly important so that you can deliver to your audience without everyone needing to be incredibly rich.
I have been thinking about your comment for days. To me, it’s one of the huge issues I struggle with on so many levels in the internet marketing world. Thank you for saying it!
Having struggled with pricing myself I’m currently a big fan of your “resonant pricing” exercise. Recently it came to my mind (when working on a “generic price”) that it didn’t feel right for two people. So I did the same thing especially for them. Some other price showed up and I’m feeling fine with that.
Half a year ago I had an experience with someone who would like to take part in my workshops, but didn’t have much money. I agreed with the organizer to let him participate for nearly nothing. But after the workshop it came to my mind: hey, why didn’t I ask him to assist a little, take care of preparing the coffee, etc. or helping to set up the room? Instead my organizer and I did that ourselves – we could have relaxed about these things and only focus on the content of the workshop.
That was a moment when I realized: if someone askes for a reduction – in the future I would consider if there’s anything I could ask them to do in return to help me out. It’s maybe not always the case, but it might lead to a win-win-situation.
Having said that I also realize I experienced being helping at the other end, and I’m thankful for that — though I’d feel better to pay the full price.
Beautiful, important topic.
In a consultation with a prospective client, if they say they’d “love to but can’t afford it”, I ask more deeply around that. Is it truly that the money is not available? Is it a question of self-worth and allowing oneself to receive help for one’s needs? Is there an insecurity which can be reassured by my Wise Investment money-back guarantee? (a very important element to have in place, I feel)
One woman who enrolled in my group programme was loaned the money (around
Thank you so much, Corrina, for offering this:
“I have said to previous clients:
Yes! That’s a really nice succinct way of putting it.
I agree.
I love this post, Mark. Thanks for sparking such an in-depth conversation!
“…not everyone can, or should, be able to afford your services. Sometimes the price you want or need to charge is going to be outside the reach of some of your audience. But where
If money is the issue, I would suggest that BOTH the client and the service provider should “ask their hearts” in Remembrance and trust the guidance they get from the Divine. Client: “Should I make this financial commitment for this service at this time?” Service provider: “Should I offer a special financial arrangement for this client at this time?”
This is a great discussion. Thanks, Mark!
I think the responsibility goes both ways. I try to charge in a way that I feel is fair to me and the client. But at the same time, not make assumptions about what’s affordable only because it’s subjective. I mean, what’s “cheap” to me might be a lot of money for someone else and vice versa.
I also don’t feel that it’s my place to judge whether something is affordable or not for someone. I feel that to do so would be disempowering to them and that’s not the way I would prefer to start the relationship.
That said, I think it’s always the responsibility of a service provider to carefully qualify clients to make sure that they are ready and there’s a good chance of success. If I sense that clients are overly nervous or give clues that they just aren’t ready in any other way, I send them away and tell them to come back later. It’s the right thing to do.
Charge your price. You’re WORTH it. If it fails in some way, then it wasn’t the right thing. My 2 cents.
We can do financial harm. And it’s not difficult to prevent.
This is a fabulous, and important conversation… and is one near and dear to my heart.
I’m more than black and white on this issue. If you sell knowing the person is struggling – really struggling – you are doing more than harm, you are being unethical. After all, if your mission is to help people (and yes, you can get paid to help, folks), you do a disservice to the people you serve if they can’t feed their family because they took out a 2nd mortgage on their home to get your high-end program.
A year or so ago, a big name ‘success’ coach write a blog post called something like ‘Gas, Groceries or Coaching’ where she focused on why the ‘teach to fish vs. give a fish’ model is the right way to go. She explained that some of of her prospects have told her some weeks they need to choose between gas or groceries, so affording coaching is out of the question. And she suggested those who say this to her are choosing to fail.
This kind of manipulation turns my stomach. And I publicly said so. Many, however, agreed with her (especially after she put a disclaimer on the article), with some reporting the article on their blogs saying it was great straight talk.
Frankly, it is great selfishness. Do you agree? What do you think?
I agree about being black and white on this issue and said so in my post further back in the conversation. I say let your conscience be your guide; if it feels wrong to work with someone, it probably is (maybe even on levels you can’t see yet). Maybe we don’t need to micro-analyze every situation; maybe it’s just as simple as trusting our built-in emotional guidance systems, which as heart-centered business owners, I hope we’re all genuinely in alignment with.
Still, you raise the interesting question of whether coaching is what is needed to raise someone out of a stuck- or subsistence-level cycle. Sometimes “teaching a man to fish” is the right action when the person is starving. And sometimes it’s not, or at least not at the time we’d like to teach it.
I think every person struggling with money has a unique situation. Some are spending on the wrong things but technically can afford to invest in themselves yet don’t. Some are self-sabotaging. Some truly need more education to have a breakthrough in their business to the level of thriving. And some quite honestly need to throw in the towel and get a J-O-B until they can reach a level of financial sustainability to take the risk that comes with being a business owner.
I think the onus is on us as the experts selling our services to learn enough about our potential clients to know the difference and do the ethical, heart-centered thing. It’s also critically important to secure *commitment* and *dedication* from new clients (especially those in riskier financial situations but also from those who aren’t under financial pressure) right from the start, otherwise no matter what they spend or can afford to spend, it could be wasted.
Naomi Dunford (IttyBiz) routinely tells the story of a client who paid her with welfare checks, but used her coaching to better herself and get OFF welfare. If all our clients had that level of commitment and dedication – and were grounded in their reality and owned it – would we even be having this conversation? I don’t know but it’s a great one and you raised some excellent questions Shannon!
I keep coming back to one thing though – we as heart-centered “sellers” need to walk our talk. I believe the responsibility for ethical behavior and ownership of action falls more heavily on us than our clients. Just as medical doctors have more knowledge than their patients – enough to kill them if they wanted to – we should swear an oath to “first do no harm”.
Look, we all believe in the ‘teach to fish’ model… after all isn’t that what we all do? But you are right, we need to follow our gut and now when a prospect isn’t a good fit – even financially.
If a client openly said to me, “I am very interested in your services; I can see that it may be of great service to me, but I honestly can not afford it.” There is nothing more to be said, in regards to signing them on. To me, whether it is a straight up financial bolder-block or them not understanding the value of my services, that is an indication that they are not ready to work with me.
My heart-centered business is solely based on trust – what is meant for me, on this journey, will be for me. As a entrepreneur, my job is to sell (meaning share the good news about) my services, not to convince clients to make a commitment (that’s their job). I don’t know, maybe I am too stark about it, but I am also, at times on the other end (as a client). The last thing I want is someone trying to convince me about anything, neither do I want to be judge about my “choice” to not afford. So I will not do it to others.
I suggest, if this is the case, move along. I’d offer gratitude for their time. Give them my information. And continue onward with my message and service work. Essentially, whether I sign them on or not, I loose nothing. I actually gain! Another opportunity to spread the word about what I do to another person. And the bonus — if that person sincerely wants and needs my services — they may reach out to me when they are better fit.
On another note: This discussion has stimulated ideas in my heart about ‘the giving’ aspect of my business. I feel like I should incorporate a “sliding-fee” type budget in my financial planning for 2012. So if I am approached with this situation (and divinely drawn to help a particular client(s)), I can work something out with them and not feel financially burdened (and neither would they).
Maybe we can all do the same? Broaden the conversation a bit — what are some ideas for solutions?
Thanks Mark!
I completely agree that what you describe is selfishness – and that it’s stomach-turning.
I can’t call it black-and-white, though, as many here have, because to me it’s so deeply shaded by individual perspective, experience, motivation, need, personality, and so on and so forth.
YES, we as business owners have a responsibility to promote our work wisely, sanely, and compassionately.
YES, we as business owners have a responsibility to not judge why someone does or doesn’t buy from us – and to me, the person you describe, Jen, is judging other people big-time and nastily.
And we as business owners are NOT responsible for other people’s choices.
We ARE responsible for doing things like providing generous guarantees, and being careful to give tremendous value. But we’re NOT responsible for what our customers do with what we provide, and whether they implement it or not. We’re only responsible for showing up as best we can to help them in ways that are appropriate to the situation.
I must say that I also find myself feeling sad for the people who perpetrate this sort of stomach-turning selfishness. They must be feeling deeply empty and needy and fearful to be doing things like that. Which doesn’t excuse it, but still…
Fantastic conversation here! thank you for starting it off, Mark!
well said, Grace. And if I sound judgmental, I suppose I am. Not of the people offering these high end programs themselves – I don’t know any of them – but of the harm I’ve seen done to people, and the ick and confusion it spreads that can taint ethical coaching, selling, marketing. That said, I love your statement of what is ours to do and what we can’t control and completely agree.
Yikes, Jen – I wasn’t meaning you were being judgmental. I was referring to the person Shannon wrote about who wrote the “gas, groceries, or coaching” post!
I know but I really took it to heart and reflected upon it as in “is it okay to judge these coaches etc.?” so thank you for that!
You’re welcome! And … is it splitting linguistic hairs when I say that it’s possible to dislike someone’s actions without necessarily “judging” – in the sense I think you’re using the word, anyway – the person taking those actions?
I don’t debate anyone’s right to be who they are and run their business the way they want to. But that doesn’t mean that I give up my right to dislike their approach, to choose not to have anything to do with them or their work, and to even actively discourage other people from working with them, if that’s what feels right to me.
Feeling my way through here … so if this doesn’t make sense or seems fuzzy, it’s because I’m not articulating it clearly!
Also, if this comment comes out above the one of yours to which I’m responding, it’s because there doesn’t seem to be a “reply” button on yours! 🙂
Guess you might be being a little judgmental on me being judgmental, too, Grace.
Absolutely not my feeling at all! and if it came across that way, I apologize.
Absolutely not my intention or my feelilng! and if it came across that way, my apologies.
(Grace, I’m addressing your comment below on splitting linguistic hairs and judging but can’t comment there). You seem to have expressed the Abraham-Hicks Law of Allowing – at least your comments recalled it for me. Thank you, it’s a great teaching. I’m guessing there’s a Sufi teaching in this vein too (Mark?)
It is absolutely possible to dislike someone’s actions while also allowing that person the freedom of their actions. “Allowing” in this sense does not mean condoning, supporting, or agreeing with; it means simply “letting be” in the sense of allowing to exist.
We are all free to judge, complain or try to control and eliminate unwanted behavior – but usually that just attracts more. It’s more effective to turn our attention away from what is not wanted and toward what is wanted instead – which is why I like Mark’s idea of a pledge.
I also think focusing the intent and language of the pledge on what we want vs. don’t want (even mentioning “harm” is, linguistically, a negative reference) is key. But that’s probably obvious.
Karen, I think we’ve maxed out the comment plug-in’s capacity for reply comments! 😉
Allowing everything to be as it is – people as well as situations – is probably one of the most universal spiritual principles (I’d say life principles) there is. So, yes, exactly what I was trying to say!
And I find myself far more intrigued by your idea of a positively-phrased pledge than a negatively-phrased pledge. Yes! That I can completely get behind. The other one, I was having some trouble with because it did, as you said, feel like it put the focus in the wrong place.
Thank you!
Grace-
Help me understand one thing: Do you think that we are responsible for turning down customers, if we think that they would not be served by buying our sevices?
Thanks!
Doug
What a great question Doug! Right to the point. I’m not Grace (and don’t want to steal your thunder Grace, so I’m interested in hearing your response), but would also love to share my answer.
I say if after full and complete disclosure of services and if applicable, a discovery/consult you feel someone would NOT ONLY not be served BUT ALSO would be potentially harmed, the answer is yes.
In any case, if they wouldn’t be served why would you want them as a customer anyway? Where there’s misalignment a good working relationship usually can’t flourish, or the whole thing turns out to be disappointing and an energy drain on both client and provider.
My position throughout this conversation has been that it’s incumbent upon us as business owners to be as open, complete and honest as possible in our marketing and one-on-one communications to determine if there’s a fit with a client so we can intelligently do no harm.
Karen, I love that: “it’s incumbent upon us as business owners to be as open, complete, and honest as possible…to determine if there’s a fit.”
Exactly!
In a word – yes.
When someone comes to me and we talk and i get the feeling for ANY reason that they’re not a fit for me and/or my work, then I have a responsibility to myself to say No, and perhaps to refer them to someone who would serve them better.
When I ignore that sense – it’s sometimes very subtle, just a sort of bzzzzz in the back of my head – I always regret it. I don’t do my best work for the people who aren’t right for me, whether it’s a question of their financial situation or anything else.
The thing I keep coming back to is, it’s not about taking responsibility for the other person. That will not end well even when it’s done with the best of intentions.
It’s about me taking responsibility for myself, It means me standing in my own integrity about how I help people, and who those people are.
I hope that answers your question!
Grace I love your appreciation of the nuances and your YES statements.
While some are motivated by selfishness, I believe there are others offering high-end big-ticket programs who are not motivated by selfishness or greed, but instead almost unconsciously acting out a process they’ve been indoctrinated into as a path to business success and growth without stopping to question it. Not trying to defend anyone, just saying I think there’s as much conscious as unconscious disregard for ethics out there . . .
Then again there’s also the whole multi-level marketing (MLM) pyramid aspect to some of these programs – where the big names who succeeded first and launched their programs created success for the next rung down (for a price), made them successful and then perpetuated the whole system. Eventually the market gets saturated. Anyone who’s ever looked at how network marketing and MLM operates knows that 80% of participants never turn a profit, they essentially fail. I wonder what the success rate of some of the big name coaches is? They never seem to disclose it.
This MLM aspect opens a whole other can of ethical worms in this conversation . . . I don’t really want to go there but it does exist.
Thank you!
And, yes. I think so much of what we’re talking about is motivated by fear, habit, not knowing what else to do.
And that’s why somewhere up there I said something about feeling sad for those people.
I commend you Shannon for saying ick publicly and I totally agree with you. Here’s what I get confused about – how do we take a stand against this stuff? Do we do it by writing blog posts like these or by calling people out privately? It feels to me like we have a community responsibility to say “This is wrong.” I know I have a strict no subscribe to, no tweet, no have anything to do with anyone who I hear does this stuff on any level. What else, if anything, do we need to do?
It’s a great point, Jen. What I think we can do about it, what is coming for me out of this conversation, is I want us, as a community, to co-create a “Do No Financial Harm” pledge. So rather than calling others out, we can spread the word that there are people who have taken a “Do No Financial Harm” pledge in their business, and to make that commitment visible- perhaps with something like the icon I used at the top of this post.
I want to run a few guest posts in the next few days from some of you in this comment stream, and then next Wednesday I’m going to post so we can co-create a pledge together.
Start thinking about it. In the meantime, if you have a guest post on this topic, the submission doors are open! Ping me, and I’ll see how many of them I can get published.
Or, publish on your own site, and link back here, let me know, so I can assemble a list of posts.
I’m in for the pledge, you know that, but I also think part of that pledge should be not supporting, speaking at, tweeting, etc. programs that course the no do harm line. I know, there is no way to decide that as a group, I’m not saying that, but it needs to be mentioned – when we publicize someone’s work we aren’t sure about in our heart’s, we are also responsible.
I agree.
Any unethical marketer could use the “Do No Financial Harm” badge without permission to mislead customers into a false sense of security. Since we’re talking about a pledge, not a central organization like a heart-centered BBB (side business, anyone?) we need Jen’s suggestion to be part of the pledge to help create a web of trust.
We can get the benefit of the Cherry Bombs without the harm of gossip if we endorse those we trust and choose not to endorse those we’re not sure about.
I like the idea Jen, but I would also find this tough to do.
I have a lot of empathy for basically good-hearted coaches who get a little slippery with their selling. I know some folks who I really believe are fundamentally kind and ethical souls who offer real value, and I can see that from time to time they slip off track into tactics that I personally find distasteful or unneccessary.
I know for myself I’ve had to feel my way through the territory of what is ok, what isn’t, what is being in my power, and what is using my power over others, and I want others to have the same permission I’ve given myself to explore without getting it just right every time.
That said, yes, I would love to have the courage and strength to say no to a speaking opportunity if I could accurately predict that icky selling tactics were being used.
Mark, would you be willing to make that “no financial harm” badge available for folks to use as a symbol on their site to publicly proclaim their desire to support this movement? Just thinking out loud, I guess.
So Obviously, I clicked submit too soon. I’m in. I have tons of stories on both sides of this. Having interviewed all kinds of folks, I hear a lot of stuff “off the record” – and have personally experience plenty of horror stories myself. It’s caused me to really shift my approach to my business as I roll into the new year.
I do the same thing, Jennifer. I do also blog about it, calling them ‘Cherry Bombs’. In those, I have a strict policy of not mentioning names… unless the ‘bad coach’ outs him or herself. So my posts are more about here’s a lesson we need to learn. (And if you are wondering, some of these posts are about things I have done. I admit it and vow never to do it again.)
Do I upset people? Yes. And some will not work with me as a result. But I feel that I am doing the right thing.
As for what ‘we’ should do as a collective, I am not sure. I think most people would have a hard time ‘calling people out’ and rightly so. I think the best thing is to keep plugging along where our truth on our sleeve.
And remember that karma can be a b*tch. 😉
My spiritual path talks strongly about the destructive power of gossip. At the same time silence can mean someone who is a “predator” can go free. It’s a very fine line to walk.
I like Shannon’s Cherry Bombs a lot- especially that they are nameless, but name the dynamic. By naming a dynamic, we can be on the lookout for that dynamic, and not get into personal attacks.
So wise, Mark! Naming the dynamic calls it to light and makes it easier for all of us to describe and to be consciously aware of the dynamic around us and to how we might be unconsciously influenced by it from time to time (thinking of your post from last year re: unspoken aspects of group dynamics and their power to influence).
Applaud you, Shannon, and others here taking an approach of bringing to light the dynamic but not a specific person.
You (& Bob Burg) have been great teachers to me on sharing some learning experiences in this way. I think the power of this — besides avoiding the name calling/gossip ick — is that it allows others to better fill in the blanks with their personal experiences and truths and take away the lessons that will best serve them.
If interested, here is one of my writings where I first experimented with this:
http://www.bestlifedesign.com/lifestyle/is-it-me-maybe-not.html
As usual, the conversation in the comments section provides the greatest illumination of the topic…including your profound words, Mark!
Wow, I sure wish CommentLuv was working for me! Anyone know why it’s not? Do I need to have it installed on my blog? Probably.
I don’t know, Karen… Hmm…
I said this in response to Jen’s comment above, but I’ll say it here.
1. Calling for guest posters on this topic! If you want to expand on your comment, or otherwise dig into this topic, I want to publish you here. Or as an alternative, publish it on your own blog, and let me know.
If you email it to me: “mark@” and put “Guest Post- No Financial Harm” in the subject line.
2. Next Wednesday, I’m going to publish a post asking for us as a community to co-create a Do No Financial Harm pledge. So start thinking about it…
I’m working on a post right now. With illustrations! (:
Mark, thank you again for holding the space for this very meaningful discussion.
Aside from being aware of a client’s financial situation, I also believe that it is my responsibility to be conscious of and aware of ALL the reasons that a client wants to work with me, including the unmet needs or wounds that might be driving them to accomplish a certain goal, such as “being a bestselling author.”
I’ve seen that unmet needs and wounds can be such a powerful influencer that can prompt people to invest in programs and resources beyond their budget or what is reasonable in hopes that the “thing” will make them whole or meet that inner need.
In my world, I’ve found that uncovering expectations and true motivations for why someone wants to launch their book or spread their message as an author is part of the “do no financial harm,” and that talking to clients realistically about results and potential outcomes can really help them to be more aware and conscious of what their investment will actually bring – and help minimize the unrealistic expectations that might be driving them to invest at a level higher than what is actually needed.
kudos Elizabeth!
A big +1, Elizabeth to you for raising the issue of uncovering, discovering, and talking to clients realistically. I’ll come back to that in a sec. . .
I’ve seen in person a few “big-name” high-end mastermind/coaching programs pitched (prices started in the low 5 figures and went up to the cost of . . . a condo) at live events and these pitches range from the low-pressure heart-centered approach to no holds-barred hoopla. They all usually have one thing in common – a strict, short deadline for a) a decision and b) deep discounts. So therein lies the hard-sell – take your time deciding and you’ll either miss the chance to save or miss the boat entirely.
I’ve watched people sign up, make down payments and put their signature on what appear to be legally binding contracts after a few hours or one-night’s sleep. When I spent that time considering a program that would’ve been a stretch for me financially and did a quick gut-heart check, the answer that immediately came up was “this is a no for me”. It wasn’t that the program felt wrong, it was more the circumstances of how it was presented that felt icky.
To someone else’s comment, yes the timing of the pitch, the hoopla, and the following-day’s very public display of who joined and who didn’t at these events are all intentional and highly orchestrated. These people know psychologically what they’re doing.
At one event I attended, some who joined an $85,000 annual group coaching/mastermind program were clearly ready. I knew them and their businesses well enough to know they had the financial means. However I’ve also met a participant in a similar program who openly admitted to financing it on her credit card with “no idea how she would pay it, but trust that the money would come”.
In the live event situations, I suspect many were ill-informed of both the time and work commitment involved even though they knew the financial commitment. That being the case, I’m sure many got in over their heads. One participant who had completed such a program told me “it’s a full time job”. Imagine being in a struggling or new business and trying to bring in enough income to survive plus find time for something like this, and pay for it? Ouch. Not impossible, but not well disclosed, either.
Where were the prospective client interview/session before the commitment had to be made that can be so helpful in ensuring if someone is a fit, let alone if they’re ready? Non-existent.
That said I have encountered other high-end programs that included a pre-interview as part of the qualification process both for the leader and participants, and found that incredibly helpful, useful and honest. It’s often bypassed, however, for quick $ and critical mass.
Great comments Karen and here’s what it reminded me of that I want to say publicly:
I *challenge* every coach selling “high end” (which presumably means high quality) programs to get OFF the stage and enroll people without the extreme pressure tactics. No big event. No choreographing people into a collectively, mutually vulnerable place. No artificial deadline (yes, they’re artificial). No hard sell. At all.
If the programs are THAT good and truly designed for those who are READY, then they should fill right up with nothing more than some honest, straight-shooting marketing and communication.
Amen sista! Amen.
exactly! why do you need twist the heart tactics if you are as good as you say you are?
And that is precisely why we may “allow” but should *not* ignore or endorse that which takes unfair advantage of the heart. I’d also go one step further to say that we need to educate one another and keep the coaching/consulting industry on its heels at all times. This is true of any industry really. It takes courage (like what we’re seeing here on Mark’s blog) and it’s messy, but evolution requires it of us.
Elizabeth,
I think you captured a really significant part of our responsibility as providers, in checking for the unmet needs and wounds that motivate people to achieve that “thing” with our help.
I haven’t been able to articulate that when giving my reasons for choices and policies in my business. Thanks for putting it so succinctly. 😉
Warmly,
Sinclair
Beautiful point, Elizabeth.
I’d love to see a guest post from you on this! How do you uncover those hidden needs? What types of unmet needs and wounds cause people to invest out of integrity with their own capacity?
Love Yollana
I feel so much relief reading this post and the comments – and such gratitude at being part of this community.
I’m a Heart of Business disciple through and through, but now and again I’ve looked over to the “big famous” business mentors and had a pang of: “Should I be doing what THEY do? Should I go for that big, glitzy, reckless, fly off the cliff approach and sell harder?”
This whole topic reassures me and confirms for me that I’m in exactly the right place, doing exactly what my heart tells me I should do.
For you all, I’m so thankful.
Corrina
So much good has been said here already. For me, with every client, it’s an intuitive conversation with my slice of the God-pie that helps me decide who is a fit for my work and who isn’t.
It’s not always about whether they can afford me, financially. There are people who can’t afford to work with me because they can’t afford the time, or because, in doing so, they are missing out on working with the right person. Who am I to stand in the way of that?
I expect people to make their own choices when it comes to their time and money, but when I get a solid “no” or “yes” out of my intuitive conversation, I go with it.
I also take time to offer services at lower price points at certain times of the year for people who need me and really can’t afford me. It’s a giving back. It really helps and often, I am paid in a deeper spiritual understanding, which is a currency that I always like!
I like what Sinclair said about the system she has in place. I think, as my business grows, that’s where I will end up, too.
Such a powerful, juicy discussion and I’ve taken away some golden nuggets to chew on for my own practice. I’ve cherished this discussion. Thanks to all.
Jackie
What to charge, what to charge… the age-old dilemma that keeps people up at night, n’est pas?
Here’s my take on it:
I am responsible for the value of what I sell. If I am consciously delivering less value for an item I’m charging for, to the detriment of my client and to pad my own bank account, then I’m choosing an unethical side of business.
Not for me.
I am responsible for delivering as much value as I can to my client. Of course, when it comes to a product or service in which the client has action to take, I’m not fully responsible for the results or outcome… but that doesn’t mean I have NO responsibility. If I am consciously negating myself of responsibility to a client’s results AFTER they’ve purchased, claiming, “It won’t work if they don’t take action” as a cop-out excuse, then I’m choosing an unethical side of business.
Not for me.
I am responsible for treating myself with self-respect. If I have consciously done a good job, looked to support the client as much as I can, put in my best and my all into creating the product or service, made sure I’ve made myself accountable to the promises I make to my client and delivered value to this person who is TRUSTING me with money and future results…
Then this is for me.
Hey folks, first guest post on the topic is from Kate Svoboda http://heartofbusiness.com/2011/whos-responsible-here-everyone/
If a client openly said to me,
“To me, whether it is a straight up financial bolder-block or them not understanding the value of my services, that is an indication that they are not ready to work with me.”
yeh let’s face it they should be able to pony up the money even if it means taking food off the table or not give their kids Christmas presents. Otherwise, how committed are they?
These kind of people need to get real. A lack of money is nothing but a weak self limiting mindset. And to fit with you they need money!
Oh and just in case, yes I’m being sarcastic and your attitude is (imho) everything that is wrong with my industry. Basically speaking, screw the poor they’re beneath me.
Great post Tim. Love the sarcasm and you speak some wise words here. I’m so tired of the hypeee mindset stuff that is floating around with bloated promises. I believe we all have to consider our own financial circumstances and take responsibility for ourselves – with everything. And, if a person chooses to not go into debt to take a program, it may not be a mindset issue so much as simply having integrity with their current financial situation. Bravo to those people who are honest with themselves and for not buying into the hoopla of all the hype. So refreshing to have these conversations and not feel like I’m the only person who feels like there’s some crazy marketing tactics out there that just make people second guess themselves or feel as though their mindset is messed.
I respect your honest opinion, Tim. Although, I sincerely feel you’ve misjudged what I said. And maybe didn’t read my comment in its entirety.
I would NEVER EVER coax a client to afford my services if it is out of their reach, neither do I judge what they choose to do with their monies.
My comment, honestly had nothing to do with clients… I actually don’t agree with, as Mark puts it, harming a client financially. My comment has everything do with me as a coach.
Ya make it seem like I throw clients out like bad rubbish. NO way! 🙂 Yet it is my responsibility to take care of me — the same way a client takes care of themselves.
I am a teacher as well as a student, so I’ve been on both sides of the picture. I’ve also paid for services that was far out of my financial capacity because I BELIEVE it was good for me. That was MY choice, not the coach’s. Whether my statement sounded harsh (read: and it wasn’t) or not, I’m stating a truth, not an opinion: People will pay for what they truly want.
So I repeat: If a client said to me that she/he couldn’t afford my services. Then it is a sign they do not want to work with me.
What else am I suppose to do, give them my arm?! (A lil sarcasm for you.) But seriously, maybe I will mature into a coach that will give free services on a whim. One day…we’ll see. (I even stated in the same comment above that I am inspired to implement waivers into my budget for 2012.) I honor the challenge Tim. 🙂
With Love,
That was what I read in your comment, Miss Burke.
I was going to jump in and say that, however I was trying to avoid a repeat of the dynamic with Tim (from your earlier guest post here, Tim) where I jump in to oppose and defend against your posts…
Oh well, looks like I’ve done it. But I don’t think you mind that at all… in fact the more you can rifle someone on a blog, the better right? …Makes for good conversation??
Even if you do have to assume the worst of them, make them look awful, and not really listen to what they are saying..??
And there you go. I took the bait. 😉
Blessings, Yollana
No you didn’t take the bait, because there wasn’t a bait laid. However, you were very clever in terms of making people think I’d set a bait and your response was nothing other than carefully thought out.
If you really want to debate, then let’s debate, but let’s stop with the pretense, and passive aggresive nonsense, especially about me thinking the worst.
Hey Tim,
Actually, I’m happy to receive this response for you… and to have you state that there wasn’t a bait laid.
I apologize if my post had the effect of making you look bad… I know Mark has a lot of respect for you. I believe our interactions have just been too few and probably got off to a poor start.
It wasn’t meant as passive aggressive nonsense. It was meant as witty sarcasm, in a directly similar vein to yours which, to me, made Miss Burke look bad… but that’s definitely not my usual mode, so I’m not surprised it came across badly.
From your response, I can see more clearly my own place of being triggered by your comment, and am willing to take responsibility for that.
… I think we’ve sidetracked this conversation, and I’m more interested to hear your response to Miss Burke
And perhaps, as a separate issue, I need coaching in the art of healthy debate – on how to recognize the difference between constructive debate and thoughtless criticism.
… Would you care to blog about it? I’m genuinely interested to learn from you in this regard.
Love Yollana
Ah, you did reply. Looks like we were posting at the same time 🙂
I never said you would coax a client to afford your services, you are missing my point altogether.
Which was, how about occasionally saying “Oh, ok you have serious financial difficulties, let me see if I can help because I know that sucks and I love to help people out of sucky situations”
Rather than presuming because somebody is broke they are “not ready to work with you” which to my uneducated mind is patronizing and arrogant.
Okay, if that was your point, I definitely missed it.
I fully comprehend what you are saying Tim.
But I can’t help to respond to any of your comments without feeling like I am defending my intentions — this makes me feel very uncomfortable.
Patronizing?
Arrogant?
Really?!
Where is your heart in all of this interpretation? If you truly felt that way, why didn’t you speak up about a solution instead of assuming things about my disposition and being sarcastic about my (created by your mind) intentions?
Unfortunately, Tim I stand firm on my point. It is not my mantra neither is it the motto engraved outside of my office door. It is what it is. If you walk into Ikea and say to the clerk, “Hey this couch is really nice, and I want to have it, but can’t afford it.” What do you think his/her response will be? (Wait for it) And on that point is how I motion my case.
Furthermore… The topic of this article is about businesses that “knowingly cause financial harm to their clients.” I don’t see how my decision not to is patronizing and/or arrogant. And frankly, gosh darn it, it is just an opinion — not the end of the world. My clients are extremely happy with my services and most importantly they trust me and respect me because I offer my all (including trust & respect) to them.
If ever I come across clients that want flexible-cost services… Hey, I’ll be sure to send them to you. 😉 …I kid. (Is it me or did it getting stuffy in here?)
…As I stated twice before… This article inspires me to implement a financial assistance program in 2012, so if the opportunity comes, I will be in a better position to assist others with their finances without hurting my finances in the process.
Business is about learning and growing. And Tim, I learned a lot from Mark’s article (and the comments from everyone else). Thank you .
With Love,
Seeing as I can’t reply to Miss Burke and Yollana directly I’ll respond to myself,. as I spend most of my life a chatting away to myself anyway.
@MB I don’t want to harp on the client not being ready for you MB because I have made that point. Some of the best results you can get are from committed pro bono clients that will move heaven and earth to show their appreciation and improve their life and I think maybe you are missing out on something way more important and fulfilling than money.
I coached a guy that lost his job and home after illness. So to say because he had no money that he wasn’t ready for coaching is insulting, and yes, I happen to think arrogant, but then again we’re working without body language and tonality here.
Having said that, the worst clients I ever worked with were Pro Bono clients that I had cajoled into working with me when I was training back in 2005. They saw no value and their work and time keeping etc represented that and it sucked.
And I didn’t come up with a solution because I thought it was obvious. IOW, take every case on its merits and don’t assume somebody is not ready because of their financial situation, because maybe they have never been more ready if you did some digging to find out?
As coaches we are supposed to have a completely open-mind, but some coaches (and I’m not saying you here because I don’t know you) are only prepared to open theirs when the client opens their check book.
And it has nothing to do with Ikea. We are in a service/caring industry (hopefully to) help people. Of course we have to make a living and no coach, unless they are very wealthy, can afford to do all pro bono or reduced fee coaching. I don’t even mention it on my site (apart from one line on my FAQ page that nobody ever reads) because I’m always backed up as it is and I’d get inundated if I advertised the fact.
@Yollana, I’m not sure I understand what you mean re helping a client. I’m a coach so I’d work with them in the same way as I’d work with any other client, just without the cash. Or, in some situations I have said to clients, pay me when you get back on your feet again.
Hey Tim, I have huge respect for what you are doing and I can see why you would go where you went. With all due respect, I think you misread Miss Burke’s meaning.
“I am very interested in your services; I can see that it may be of great service to me, but I honestly can not afford it.
Hi Tim- Not to prolong this too much, but I think it’s important to take the comment she wrote in the context of her entire comment. I think that you are making a fantastic point which I agree with entirely- money may or may not be an indicator of their readiness. Someone can be ready and just not have the cash.
The point I wanted to emphasize here is that Miss Burke said, in the same comment, that her heart had been opened and she was looking at introducing a sliding scale and other strategies to be generous to those without money. If she understood that, then maybe it brings a different understanding to her earlier comments as well- that maybe she does care, and isn’t judging people as strongly as you thought she was.
Ah! Other things we can do, I love that
I go by the golden rule “Client is always right no matters what ? “
I saw a coach’s website earlier today where she keeps an “anticipation list” for pro bono clients. She takes a certain number at a time–when one “graduates” from coaching, someone from the “anticipation list” takes his or her place.
This sounds like an great idea. I’m leaning towards something of this sort! 🙂
This is the very reason why my business is centered to those who can really afford my services. It is very important to know your target customers very well and if you are truthful with the services you offered and you are not ripping them off at the same time you are not presenting a mediocre service then I guess there is nothing to worry about. Just be truthful.
I actually came her to say nice job Mark, and I know we’re on the same wave length with this, but then got sidetracked 😉
So, nice job Mark and good post!
Re the issue Tim is getting at above:
Miss Burke said: “If a client said to me that she/he couldn
Thank you Karri — you make a valid point! There may be coaches out there that are using head games and semantic bla-bla to twist reality to get people to buy. << That is not what I do.
Tim took that statement out of context & content. The word Ready means (and as I meant it) to be in a "suitable state for an activity, action, or situation; fully prepared." So in this case, if a potential client isn't able to afford my services, then they are not in a suitable state to begin sessions with me. Which is the prime reason I don't (even before finances are discussed) aim to sign people on. I only aim to share my message, and trust that the relationships and exchanges are formed from that place.
I left that comment without judgement to anyone. I was simply observing my own purchase habits. I typically say that I can't afford something, even if I would love to have it, when I am not ready to buy it (for whatever reason that may be: finances, politics, discipline, not applicable, etc). But on the flip side, if I truly want what is being offered, I will find a way (that was aligned with my values) to get it. We all do this in or daily lives. So I saw that as also being the case for any potential client that I crossed paths with. Being able to afford or not, imho, is a choice — not a stipulation.
Note: I never wrote that I tell clients, "If you can't afford me, you aren't ready to work with me." Also dangerously misinterpreted as "You aren't ready to change your life" or "You must starve to work with me." Really?! I am an educator, that doesn't even make sense to me. What I did say is, I express gratitude and offer to keep the relationship growing in another capacity. Maybe I won't be offer them discounted Wardrobe Awareness one-on-one sessions, but I do openly discuss with them and share what it is I have to give freely.
Whatever Tim felt is solely based on his perception. I no longer want to address what his comments because 1) he is entitled to his feelings and 2) it has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
I just want to make it clear however, that my comment is not about degrading clients, who are unable to afford. I was just speaking from my experience — there is no point in "trying" to sell/help a client do anything — it's better to embrace what is.
Share your message, let them decide.
I like the way described readiness here and I tend to agree with you as you explained it. Each of us, whether we be on the selling or buying side of a transaction, must look honestly at readiness on all levels. The outer (money in this case) always reflects the inner (readiness).
Taking myself as an example, I know if I really want/need something, despite financial circumstances I ALWAYS find a way to buy it. (As you pointed out, we all do). I also know that when I hesitate financially to make a purchase it is a sign that something besides money is also out of alignment. Translation = I am unsure, undecided, unclear or don’t really want it. All signs of lack of readiness.
I believe money as a barrier in purchase situations IS a reflection of readiness on other levels. Think about it: money is the 3D physical exchange medium we use, so wouldn’t its availability or lack thereof (or willingness/unwillingness to spend even if available – same idea) simply be the outer manifestation of readiness to exchange on other, less tangible levels? Agree? Disagree?
One last thing: If I’ve ever really wanted something and had no idea how I would pay for it, the resources have appeared. Yes, EVERY TIME. So, if “the universe” doesn’t deliver, might it be because it can’t? I happen to believe we attract in vibrational harmony to where we are focused. If a person does not have the strength of intention, faith and clarity to attract needed resources, perhaps that’s an indication they are not ready for whatever it is they think they want. And yes, sometimes “getting that message” from the universe/other people can suck. What does everyone else think?
I love the way this conversation is being lead into various directions. Karen, you’re comment gets me positively excited! ^_^
You speak of some philosophies that I honestly believe in, but I’ve learned to embrace the fact that not everyone feels the same. This is why, especially in the case of coaching various types of people, I’ve learned to let it be, because anything beyond that becomes either a judgement or an imposition on either of us.
I don’t feel, that when the Universe “doesn’t deliver” to us (respectively), this means we are not focusing our energy or it is a reflection of our inner state. Although, that could it, but it isn’t always the case. I do believe that it means, on a universal scale of things, that something or someone is not ready (point made in my previous comment) — either they are not ready for it or it is not ready for them.
The sucky emotions become a part of the circumstance when we start to judge (not) being ready as a good or bad thing. I use to feel that when clients said they weren’t interested or couldn’t afford my services, it meant that my I fell short of my gift: that I needed to better myself as a coach, and I was only worth what they could give me. This led to many mistakes, as I tried to jazz up my message and modify my business to be accepted. No win. But when I started to see those “Not interested” or “I can’t afford” moments as, “something is just not ready,” things started opening up for me. Other clients started to come along, and they were actually enthusiastic about my message and the work I did. No strain on either part.
Once I stopped judging it, it became a chance to grow (read: not change), or better yet a chance to move out the way, so the Universe can continue its work and align me with those experiences that were sincerely designed for me.
I feel that it pays not put a label on any circumstance, even the seemingly negative ones. It also pays to trust (this is why I say “something is just not ready yet…”) and have patience. When we seek something with our whole heart, we will find it, but we need patience, trust, and acceptance of what is, to lead the way. Personally, having these clears the fog (the worry, the hurt, the concern, the debt, the this & that) from my view, so I am finally able to see & welcome what is truly meant for me.
With Love,
I agree, readiness is just that, alignment or not, rather than a judgmental reflection on anyone or anything.
Lack of readiness does not necessarily mean that the acquiring party is not ready or is undeserving. As you astutely pointed out, it could mean that the providing party is not a fit or is the unready player. Or, it could simply be that a third circumstance neither party can conceive of is not yet present but needs to be (so in that sense the overall timing isn’t right beyond anyone’s control). In that last case readiness is not a reflection of any person’s individual state.
I find in cases of “lack of readiness” it’s futile to probe too much into “whys”. If there is lack of readiness on any part, I just accept it and move on, like you said.
In the end, I believe not only that we attract in harmony with our “vibe”, but also that the universe/God always conspires in our favor – the universe “yields” to us vs. punishes us. When I trust in that, I know I am served and will be led to serve where and when needed without having to force or bend anything to my will.
Take this (or leave it) for what it’s worth though and as genuine advice. I spent 20 years in sales and a lot of it in training. People are complicated and buying motives can vary massively, but the single worst thing any sales person can do in terms of the technical aspect of the sale, is to presume the customer has buying motives the same as our own.
Somebody saying they can’t afford something can mean any number of things and the first thing any competent sales person would do would be to isolate the objection. So if somebody tells me they can’t afford me I ask if they could afford me, would they hire me?
if they say yes than I have isolated a genuine objection and I can then choose to help or not. if they say no however, I know it’s a false objection and there’s something else.
This has zero to do with the post I realize, but I thought I’d share it.
One other thing:
” there is no point in “trying” to sell/help a client do anything
That’s what we’re doing all the time. That’s why we have websites, business cards, attend networking events, explain the benefits of what we do, have consults etc. It’s all about that, because without the ability to share the benefits of what we do we’re dead in the water.
Sure we don’t want to hard sell, I hate that, but we’re all sales people whether we like it or not.
Hey folks, here’s the latest: What Does a Do No Financial Harm Pledge look like? http://heartofbusiness.com/2011/what-does-a-do-no-financial/ Let’s advance the discussion.
Love this discussion.
I’ve been on different sides of the equation:
I’ve purchased high-end coaching (which did leave me with significant debt, but also helped me double my income and sustain that growth).
I’ve co-lead high-end coaching groups.
I’ve offered expensive programs (one of my mentors said I was on the low-end of high-end coaching, which I took as a compliment.)
I’ve witnessed friends and colleagues suffer deep stress and spend lots of money on programs that didn’t serve them. When people ask me about investing in these kinds of programs, I caution them to be absolutely sure they are being guided, and to consider what gains are realistic before they put their money down.
I remain deeply ambivalent about charging high prices, and continue to explore the territory of asking to be valued for what I provide and making it possible for a wider range of folks to work with me.
What I would like to add to the conversation:
1. I have no problem with anyone asking for any fee they would like. What troubles me deeply is when a business owner sells the dream, and not the program. Sells the dream of making six- or seven-figures or having everything in your life go smoothly, and not the components and elements of the program being offered.
2. I also hate “fast action” bonuses that use fear of loss of a massive discount to keep you from engaging in a more thoughtful decision-making process. One of our most sacred duties as a business owner selling our services is to support clients in making the best possible decision about whether or not our offer is right for them.
3. I define “affordable” as an investment that the client (or prospective client) can manage without needing a miracle. When I invested in a high-end program (an experience I adored), I knew the worst case was that I would have a big chunk of debt that would take me some years to pay off. I ended up getting a 3 to 1 return on my investment, but I went in knowing I would be ok if I didn’t get dramatic growth.
My best resource has been learning to tune into my spiritual guidance. I purchased a program I couldn’t really afford because my guidance was so clear and unequivocal that this was a key step for me to take.
I don’t undertand why anyone would want to work with a client who has so many objections.
When it comes to customer objections I’m at a point in which if someone has an objection like money or time or wondering about value, I let them move on.
The people I want to work with are the ones who are really excited to be working with me. They’re the ones who return my calls right away, who do the assignments, and who have no problem paying my invoices. And they get results which is why I do what I do to begin with.
At some point I realized I’m not cut out to work with “challenging” clients. There are coaches who are great at doing this and I gratefully step aside to let them do so.
If you don’t want to be an evangelist and cajole reluctant prospects to work with you, don’t do it. Life is too short.
“I don
For me to feel satisfied in my business it’s so important to see my clients making real progress. That means the clients need to be fully committed and engaged in the work. And it means they’re taking action, trying things out, and learning.
It’s painful sometimes when it seems like things “could” work out if only… but it’s even more painful when I managed to sweet talk someone into working with me and they’re unhappy, I’m unhappy, and it turns into a big, snarly hairball of misery for everyone.
“My best resource has been learning to tune into my spiritual guidance.”
Beautifully said, and straight on! This is key to life… to business, to relationships, to everything. I’m so happy you mentioned that point here.
Judy, how have you learned to tune into your spiritual guide?
Using Remembrance which was introduced to me by Mark Silver. More recently I worked with Jim Keeley, one of Mark’s teachers at the University of Spiritual Healing and Sufism. Jim teaches a one year course and that helped me see the ego stuff with more compassion. When I could see that it made it easier to say “OK Divine, I’m really stuck here, what do you have to show me that’s different?”
One thing I’ll add is that Divine guidance isn’t usually “Here’s your plan for the week” it’s could be here’s how to see this one issue for the next hour or so.”
A second thing I’ll add is I’m hardly a role model for seeking Divine Guidance. There are plenty of times when I feel “I know what to do here God, thanks but no thanks.” I have to be feeling pretty frustrated and/or sad to be pushed to ask for help in a humble way. But it’s better to do what you can imperfectly I think.
That IS painful Judy. Yet sometimes no matter how hard we try or how great the quality of our work, the client isn’t able or isn’t willing to take action on it, often despite our encouragement, facilitation, and willingness to adapt the proposed solution. At that point there’s a big letting go process and I’ve had to learn this over time (didn’t come easy!).
ps: by “letting go” I don’t mean to say it’s time to ditch the client/project/whatever. I mean that sometimes the synergy isn’t there or the client is perhaps taking in / receiving value but not ready to ACT on it. On the other hand, we need to be tuned in enough to understand when a poor fit has occurred or things have otherwise, quite simply, gone off the rails and it’s time to let both parties off the train! That may involve making amends which can be uncomfortable.
I don
Yeh especially when clients are left wondering “what’s a gut instant? This guy is a simpleton!”
@Tim @ Karri
I totally get that there are nuances and it’s not black and white. There are for sure situations in which it’s absolutely worthwhile to work through concerns with a prospect.
No disagreement from me.
My post was my impatient reaction to the energy I see being put into wooing a prospect when everything in my gut is saying, “this person just isn’t that into you” to quote a popular best seller.
And my impatient reaction to my own tendency to speculate “why don’t they call me back?”
It’s been liberating for me to give myself permission to let prospects go.
It’s also liberating to give myself permission to focus on walking through open doors rather than hurling myself against ones that are either open just a crack or closed altogether.
Amen sister.
Yes, we can do harm – not just financial, but spiritual, karmic, emotional harm. And the ultimate in physical harm
Sorry that got so long, guys! (Chagrin.) It snuck up on me in the little box! Oy. (delete pls Mark if that’s better.)
I’m glad you jumped in Andrea. I remember you once said in response to a comment about rip offs and scams, “all the more reason to create something really great and put it out there.” It was one of the most graceful responses I’ve heard to those concerns.
And I appreciate that you are in constant motion creating and testing a variety of programs with a wide variety of collaborators. My take has been that when we ourselves are in integrity with our values, we’re more able to more in a world in which there’s naturally a lot of ambiguity.
I value you as someone who walks her talk.
Peace
Judy
Ah, Judy, thanks for the reminder of what I said. How nice to discover that I agree with myself this many years later. 😉
As far as ambiguity, seems like that’s where conversations get spiciest, and the opportunity for change happens… you know, as opposed to when minds are made up in black and white…?!
Andrea,
I really appreciate your compassion for and willingness to engage with teachers or coaches who have done some form of harm with their offers.
In business, we are so often called to navigate grey areas to find our place of strength, and clarity, and power. I can’t always know what doesn’t feel right until I actually try doing something different and out of my comfort zone.
I want compassion for myself when I mess up, or cross a line, and so I am drawn to offer it to others as well.
Most people I’ve met with questionable selling practices are real human beings who truly believe in the value of what they offer, but like all of us at some time, get blinded or disconnected from the impact of what they are doing, whether because of greed, insecurity, fear, or not knowing there’s a better way.
I’ve yet to meet someone who really openly says “yea, I am ripping people off, who cares.”
So true, Isabel! And the people who would say ‘you know, I wonder if I’m being manipulative if I do that’ or ‘i’m uncomfortable doing that’ are the ones that likely don’t have to worry as much. 🙂
Since Andrea referenced determining fees based on your value and I find that most people are not great at measuring their own value (either over-value or under-value themselves), here’s a little something that might help.
I’ve found that a very good way to set your fees and measure your value is to charge as little as you possibly can in the beginning (which requires an understanding of your personal financial situation and the amount of time you are putting into generating revenue) and then slowly increase your fees as you feel your value increase in relation to the results the people working with you are experiencing.
This goes against some “traditional” advice not to get wrapped up in the results of your clients, but that simply never set right with me.
@Alexis
Charging as little as possible has the attraction of simplicity going for it but in my case and in other heart-led entrepreneurs, we have a tendency to undercharge to begin with.
I think your approach is possible but it requires a high level of self-awareness and monitoring because it’s awfully easy to slide into resentment and resentment isn’t a good place energetically to help clients. So assuming the entrepreneur is very aware of his or her feelings around what they’re charging it could work from that end.
I also can’t help but wonder if it’s healthy on the customer or client side to be under-charged.
A lot of this has been covered in depth in this discussion.
What I’ll say is in my own case, I strongly prefer using a value-based pricing model. As a marketing and branding coach and consultant it’s not that hard for me to estimate the value of my services.
If my primary service were spiritual healing or energetic work it might be trickier but I suspect it could still be done.
There’s an excellent discussion of value-based pricing in Alan Weiss’ book: Million Dollar Consulting.
And George Huang, a coach and colleague of Robert Middleton has written several articles on value-based pricing which I found helpful and interesting. http://www.freedompreneur.com.
One point George makes which resonated for me is the importance of “financial literacy” for entrepreneurs. Although emotional issues play a role in how we price our services sometimes we just plain need to learn basics like accounting and financial reporting.
At some point if you’re a business owner you’re going to have to deal with accounting and financial reporting, it’s just part of taking care of your business.
Yes, I agree that many heart-centered entrepreneurs are at risk of under-charging and do not have the consciousness around financial matters that is sustainable for business. Value-based pricing is great, but as you indicated for those who are providing services where the financial return is difficult to quantify it can be a real challenge, especially when someone is just starting out.
The process I created for myself (which I share with others as the Money Map) was created specifically to address the co-incidence of all of these factors — it’s a system for helping people who are challenged around looking at their numbers begin to get intimate with them in a supportive framework and then to apply that intimate understanding of their own financial needs to build a business model (pricing + packaging of services) that makes sense given the cross section of their own personal financial needs and the value they are objectively providing to their customers. I have not read the books you referenced, but suspect that my model takes into account their recommendations as it was created based on my own real life experiences building a couple of million dollar plus professional services businesses, needing to get financially literate along the way, and learn how to price/package consistent with my own value. If you work with clients to help them price/package/build business models, I’d love for you to check out the Money Map to see if it’s something that would help you help them. Let me know.
Speaking of money, this program looks like it could provide some new perspectives that none of us have yet considered: http://evolverintensives.com/upcoming/ce-sacred-economics.html
Alexis is there a a diagram or super simple summary of your Money Map program? I’m curious about it and a “quick and easy” summary would be super helpful for me.
Thanks, Judy
I’ve kind of lost the thread of this conversation as I’ve been catching snippets via e-mail so I may be missing something.
However the name Alan Weiss kind of jumped out at me and made me chuckle.
Seriously, a conversation about heart-centered business and you quote Alan Weiss?
That’s like suggesting somebody who wants to learn about humility check out Donald Trump.
@Tim
I can see why you’d say Alan is like “The Donald.” On the other hand I’ve written to Alan a few times and he’s responded to every email and has always been very gracious.
I find his material intelligent, well-written, and actionable and I perceive a good heart beneath his bluster.
My take and my experience.
@ Judy, agreed that’s all you can go on, but get back to me if you ever have cause to disagree with him or mention that you like Seth Godin 😉
@Tim
That’s very kind of you, thanks.
Reposting this in the correct place:
Mark, this is EXACTLY why I created my Money Map process and subsequent program. I needed it for myself because I was torn to pieces about my business model.
The crack came about in late 2009 when I was in the midst of an awakening of sorts that the business I had built to provide me with freedom had trapped me. I had just met with my accountants and discovered my companies were on track to bring in $2,000,000 for the year. I
I go by the golden rule
Love, love, LOVE this conversation going on! For too many reasons, so won’t get nitty gritty here. Suffice to say, that seeing it happening is enough to let me know that consciousness is shifting in our industry, which has been a long time coming!!
Regardless of the semantics in how you answer the question about doing your clients financial harm, I am smiley to see that everyone can hold space for the possibility. And instead of getting into my personal answer, I love the idea of looking at ways we can “fix it.”
What came to me over and over in meditation this morning was:
1) Listen!! First, listen to your self. Be sure you are creating programs at prices that will serve you and your family, that honor the work you’ve done and the expertise you have. There really and truly is no market or person who can tell you what to charge, so that has to come from within.
Second, listen to your client. What is the BIG transformation they are desperate to get from you and at what cost? Can you honestly, and whole heartedly deliver that? Will forkin’ over that chunk of change put them into survival mode (from which, very little can be accomplished!) Or will it just add some debt or require some financial restructuring? (Yes, one can live quite happily sans cable and organic food for a bit….And yes, debt ain’t the end of the world!)
If you can honestly, whole heartedly say they’ll make their investment back, then make your offer at the price point your heart tells you.
2) Express what the hell you’re thinking! I love hearing so many of us talk about what is good for the clients without actually just telling them flat out your thoughts and concerns and giving them the chance to think it through and make that decision on their own!!
3) Trust. You’ve got to trust that they are making the right decision for them. You’ve also truly got to trust that you are here, doing this work to make a difference. Whether they are going to hop on board right this moment or 1 year from now, trust that what they decide is perfect. (Yes, this gets into selling tactics and what not. If you truly trust that they’ll jump on when the time is right, you don’t really need to emply any tactics that feel false. But this is another can of worms. And I still haven’t had morning tea yet, so will leave the worms for later.)
HA! OK, so didn’t mean to, but that all spells out “Let” and was just wanting to say “Let go”….So I’ll say it. Let go! Stand in your heart space and know that what you are offering comes from right intention.
And, for all those other people you see out there mucking it up, I say let them. Karma don’t lie.
We’ve all transgressed, we’re all learning, and we’re all moving towards creating a way to do business that doesn’t suck. Which gets to me being super giddy with what this all means: Business doesn’t need to be what it has been. We (and, even if we don’t get all those “bad ones” on board) are here to create a new way of doing it. And that has to be enough for now!
Whew….getting super long, but one last notion. I LOVE this quote and have been loosely holding it as I help people step into this new way of doing biz….
And, if somebody could be so kind as to tell me how to friggin update my profile pic when replying, it’d be stellar! Thanks!!!!!
This is really a good topic to discuss on. As for me developing a software or offering a service that is affordable and can be obtain even by a simple person truly serves the main purpose of it. There are lots of services that are not really serving their purpose which is to help other to make their business grow but instead, they only think of their own personal gain. My point of view here is, it would be better to provide service that will help many people because their success will be your success too.
Selling is an art